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User talk:DaRomanian
Might want to get a better source instead of using wikipedia. Zaloga is notoriously bad for refence on German armor, good historians on German armor are Jentz and Doyle, neither of which supports this claim as there is no written document supporting it. Even some Russian historians have doubts on the claim, or did you just ignore the little tidbit on wikipedia that says "Axis tank experts like Thomas L. Jentz and Vladimir Francev/Charles K. Kliment make no such claims." Nor does the time table add up as by the time the Germans got to see the Maresal in late '43, the designs of the Jagdpanzer 38t was being finalized. Czech components were not added to the Maresal until after the Germans saw the design. Hauptman (talk) 15:32, May 30, 2018 (UTC) Knock it off with the unsupported claim, consider this a warning. Hauptman (talk) 15:37, May 30, 2018 (UTC) There are 3 books on the Wiki that support this "claim", which would not even need support if one has common sense: the two look essentially the same, but the first Romanian prototype was crafted over 7 months before Hetzer production started. 'Nuff said. Also, give me a break with your "muh source is good, yours is not", okay, any writted scholary source is reliable and holds its due weight, you don;t just get to brush it off because "muh source is better". Anyway, I'm clearly wasting my time with you. You're clearly one of those blind Germanophiles, your username's a dead givaway too. If after over a decade of that sourced """"""""claim"""""""" being on the Wiki you don;t accept this FACT, then you're just full of biases. I'll let you just relish in your world of fantasy where the Hetzer is an original design. It's not, it is and always will be, a knock-off. Now good day to you. DaRomanian (talk) 15:46, May 30, 2018 (UTC) Neither of those books support the claim, they only mention the claim. The claim gets contradicted by the actual experts on German armor such as Jentz, Doyle, and Spielberger. It also gets contradicted by a numbed of other historians who write predominantly on German armor. There is not a single piece of written documentation that supports the claim with hard facts, just heresay, claiming that a German officer admitted that they took ideas, that is about as far as it goes. But it doesn't show up in any of the German records with regards to the Jagdpanzer 38t project. I will most definetly brush of an unsupported claim that has no written material to back up, citing a book that you have not read yourself and therefor not knowing what it says inside is not proof. Especially when the foremost experts on that subject, German armor, lend no credence at all to the claim and even have their doubts on it. Wikipedia is notoriously bad because any idiot can edit information and it doesn't get checked, to give a fine example it was even claimed on wikipedia that the Americans engaged a 3rd Maus in 1945 and took it by burrying it with a bulldozer, and a link given to a book. An utter load of nonsense which was contradicted by all the records and documentation that exists on the Maus and can be found in Frohlich's book "Kampfpanzer Maus', that is how reliable wikipedia can be. To give an example on how poor Zaloga can be with regards to german armor he claism that the US only had 3 encounters with Tigers during the fighting in NWE, when the actual German reports and the records of the Schwere Abteilungen show clearly that there were a heck more than just 3 encounters with US forces. As early as March 1943 a request was made for a new lightly armored tankhunter to replace the older Marder series, requirements were for adequate armor, overhead protection for the gun and crew, and a low silhouette. Development was to be based on the chassis of the panzer 38t and later the 38d. The blueprints for the Jagdpanzer 38t were being finalized in late '43, before the Germans even get to take hold of the designs of the Maresal from the Romanians, which they received somewhere in December '43 or January '44 It was only with M04 that the Germans took an interest in the vehicle and it was presented to Hitler by Marshal Antonescu in December 1943. The 5th prototype underwent tests and modifications helped by Alkett and Vomag specialists in March-May 1944. It is this 5th prototype that used the components of the 38t chassis, the previous models did not. The image you posted is of this 5th prototype and given the date of this prototype it has relevance to the Jagdpanzer 38t Claiming that the Jagdpanzer is just a knock off without any kind of documentation to back it up, wow talk about nonsense, here's something that might have evaded you, just because something looks doesn't mean it is. Engineers follow something that is called logic, that is why unrelated project on the opposite side of the planet can turn out to be very similar, if a similar lien of logic is followed in the design process the end result will be something similar. Fine example is the StG 44 and the AK-47, they look pretty similair but that is it. And really accusing me of being a Germanophile because of my username, how retarded are you? Hauptman (talk) 16:13, May 30, 2018 (UTC) Hauptman There are at least 3 book sources I can list right now, that I have read, which confirm that the Hetzer is based on the Maresal. But I want to make sure you get my stake in this: I do not want the supposed glory in having inspired one of the most successful German TD of the war. I'd much rather my country's tank designs stand on their own. But we had one sole truly original WW2 tank design, but it can't stand on its own because the prevailing narrative attributes our design to the Germans. But here, let's see what the book says. "Third Axis, Fourth Ally - Romanian Armed Forces in the European War, 1941-1945", written in 1995 by Mark Axworthy and published by "Arms and Armour" in London, page 229: "There is little doubt that the Maresal M-04 plans strongly influenced Hetzer development, for the armament, armour configuration and the broadening of the chassis were very similar. In May 1944 Lieutenant-Colonel Ventz, the delegate of the Waffenamt, admitted that the T-38(t) tank destroyer had followed the Romanian design solution." I am not retarded. I am sorry I got emotional and angry. I just wasn't in the possession of the sources to confirm my claims, and that frustrated me, but now I fortunately am. It angers me the insane amount of injustice that the Maresal got. All started examples and all prototypes destroyed, all plans destroyed, almost all photos destroyed. The rabid Reds tried to nothing less than erase from existence the sole true Romanian AFV design of WW2. But they failed in their ultimate purpose. Some photos survived, now everyone can see them, digital renditions have been created by several net users (most notably, the Tanks Encyclopedia), model Maresals are being created by miniature modelling companies around the world and recently - it even made an appearance in a Japanese RPG. I'm playing the game and enjoying the might of the Maresal. But even if the Reds failed in their absolute long-term goal, they still found considerable success in the Wehraboos who insist that the Hetzer came from nothing, thus crediting the Germans with the Romanian design. If nothing else, can we at least agree that the Maresal is a precursor, as it came months before the Hetzer project was even approved? DaRomanian (talk) 13:02, April 11, 2019 (UTC) You have been warned about this before. Now you come here again, post the same poor sources as you did back then which were explained to you why these were not good and now you go and insult an admin because you're incapable of actually formulating an argument. How stupid are you? Zaloga makes no support at all, all he mentions is that tehre is a claim by. That is it! Nor does your other source do better as all that Axworthy says is that a member of the Waffenamt supposedly said that the Hetzer got inspired by the Maresal in May 1944 without any further information. It is simply mind boggling how dumb you must be to think that these vague writings confirm your nationalistic wishlist fantasy when far more detailed accounts and written documention makes no single mentino of it at all. Even the Russians had several Hetzer look-a-like vehicles but their drawings preceed the Russians first encounter the Jagdpanzer 38t. But here is the kicker that you still don't understand in your stupidity, the Jagdpanzer 38t was never referred to by the Germans as a Hetzer. It does not appear in any official documention that has a relation to the Jagdpanzer 38t project. Go ahead and act like an immature child. Hauptman (talk) 19:39, April 16, 2019 (UTC) Whoa whats with this large arguement all of a sudden? can we all stop argueing at each other and find some common ground on this issue? Kwarduk (talk) 19:56, April 16, 2019 (UTC) No Kwarduk, there will be no common ground here. The moron has been warned about this in the past, almost a year ago. He could not provide actual sources to support the claim that the Maresal is the inspiration for the Hetzer, going even so far as to claim that the hetzer is nothing mroe than a poor copy of it. There is no written documentation to back this claim up and the more details works that we have with regards to the development of the Jagdpanzer 38t by experts on German armor make no single mention of it. He was giving explanation back then as to why the 2 sources he listed were poor years back then. He posts them again this time and still he doesn't seem to have learned a thing. Apparently when he can't make an argument he resort to this kind of nonsense insult directed at me. Like the little child he is, this shows plenty. "Hauptmann you're a nigger faggot Wehraboo whose mind is still stuck before 1995, when the Maresal's existence was firmly revealed to the Western world, along with its similarity to the Hetzer and its precedence by over half a year, and even statements by German officers stating exactly what you've just deleted for a second time. Denialist scum like you is exactly the reason why nobody knows about the Maresal, because you're suppressing its signifcance by crediting the sole Romanian original AFV design of WW2 to the fucking Germans, who obviously don't already have enough good stuff to their name. I've given you two book sources, both written by Western scholars, one of which is an actual tank expert, and it still wasn't good enough for you. You revert without explanation, because you have nothing to explain, you're a denialist Wehraboo, plain and simple. I'm sure your Western pussy ass is going to ban me now, because of-fucking-course you will. Your feelings must be protected from reality just like your precious Hetzer must be protected from "those evil thieving Romanians who want to claim the Hetzer" (I bet on 10 lei that this is literally how you think). Have your fun. But before I go, one final whole-hearted "up yours" from a pure-blood Romanian: _I_" I have little patience for nationalistic swines like this. Hauptman (talk) 20:14, April 16, 2019 (UTC) I see, I think the saying "Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience" applies properly to this situation, thanks for the enlightement and apologies for the intrusion. Kwarduk (talk) 20:17, April 16, 2019 (UTC) Wow that escalate quickly. Where did he wrote what you put in quote ???? Fox357magnum• • "I love Pasta"(Talk) 23:46, April 16, 2019 (UTC) After looking at logs, this was written in the Hetzer talk page, did get pulled down quickly though. Kwarduk (talk) 23:55, April 16, 2019 (UTC) Hey Fox, as Kwarduk mentioned this was posted by him in the Hetzer talk, I've removed it and I am still waiting for the apology from him. My patience for utter muppets whose nationalistic pride is so high up their ass that all they can do is spew crap is already thin as it is. If his stupidity is to severe for him to behave or even read simple articles than he has no place here as far as I am concerned. Hauptman (talk) 14:40, April 17, 2019 (UTC)